ppfuf: (Hedgehog and Hare)
[personal profile] ppfuf

My google-fu is weak today. I cannot find a Dutch(?) folktale. One of the trencher prints refers to a fable I can't remember and can't find. The British Museum says this group is from Aesop, but I can't find it the collections I've checked (The hedgehog and the rabbit; a trencher copied from Gheeraerts's illustrations to Aesop). Can anybody give me a summary of the tale with a moral someting like: 
 
The cunny help the hedgehogs dovt | the hedgehoge keeps the cvnny out | Wher by it may be notet | Will gave som a inch theyll tak a nell

The bunny helps the hedgehogs out | The hedgehog keeps the bunny out | Where by it may be noted, | Will give some a inch, they will take a yard.

The picture is a unrealistically large hedgehog guarding the entrance of it's burrow from a crouching rabbit (or maybe a hare).

Date: 2010-05-26 10:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] j-i-m-r.livejournal.com

If it is Dutch, I'd ask coquinaria ... http://coquinaria.livejournal.com/profile

Date: 2010-05-26 10:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ppfuf.livejournal.com
It might be Dutch, I'm not sure. I know I can't find it in English version of Aesop, and the orginal source for these engravings was a Dutch collection of fables.

Date: 2010-05-26 11:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dame-cordelia.livejournal.com
I wonder if the fable was in fact one of Aesop's and they adapted it to use local animals instead of the originals?

Date: 2010-05-26 11:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aimeric.livejournal.com
I found this, but it doesn't seem to gibe with the quote...

http://www.calendersign.com/en/am_hare_hedgehog.php

Re: right cast, wrong story & century

Date: 2010-05-26 11:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ppfuf.livejournal.com
yeah, that's the story I keep getting when I google. Sadly I can't make the moral "Choose a wife of your own degree" match up with "No good deed goes unpunished".

Thanks for searching!

Date: 2010-05-26 11:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ppfuf.livejournal.com
I saw that one too, it's interesting. There's a couple that feature the hedgehog running the devil to death as well.

Thanks for searching!
From: [identity profile] ppfuf.livejournal.com
I dont think it's one of Aesop's or I would have found it by now. I think the 16th century publisher just put together a bunch of tales and slapped Aesop's name on it, because Aesop was a big seller. :(

*ducking and running for cover*

Date: 2010-05-27 12:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gormflaith.livejournal.com
"No good deed goes unpunished is Rule #285 in the Ferengi Rules of
Acquisition: Unabridged and Fully Annotated. With all 47 Commentaries,
all 900 Major and Minor Judgments, all 10,000 Considered Opinions
http://www.stinsv.com/DSn/roa.htm

Re: *ducking and running for cover*

Date: 2010-05-27 12:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ppfuf.livejournal.com
Once upon a time, there was a smart-aleck apprentice....

Re: *ducking and running for cover*

Date: 2010-05-27 12:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gormflaith.livejournal.com
Help! I've got a search box and I can't stop using it....

Date: 2010-05-27 04:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gurdymonkey.livejournal.com
My brain went there: Crouching Rabbit, Hidden Hedgehog.

Aleit might be able to help with translation bits, but she's in Germany for the next several weeks. Her lj is allison_is if you want to try to message her.

Date: 2010-05-27 05:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tafelspitz.livejournal.com
Hokay. Not having the Dutch but having the Deutsch I hopped across the border and searched for Hase, (Hare) and Igel, (Hedgehog). There is a well-known fairy tale/fable collected by the Brothers Grimm from the low German, (which makes sense that Buxtehude being next door to the Low Countries) called Der Hase und der Igel. It seems to be a variation on what we know as the Tortoise and the Hare with some class conflict and the moral of stick-to-your-own-kind mixed in .

The Hedgehog is a farmer who one fine Autumn Sunday morning goes for a walk in his fields to see how his turnips are growing. While out in the field he encounters the Hare. The Hare, while a gentleman, is also cruel and arrogant. He ignores the Hedgehog's friendly greeting and instead asks what he is doing out so early. "Going for a walk" replied the Hedgehog. "Walking? On those short, crooked things? They're better fit to crawl." sneered the Hare. This galled the Hedgehog who replied, " I bet I can outrun you in a foot race" "You? With your crooked legs?" said the Hare. "That's laugh. But if you are of such a mind, what will you bet?" "Ten gold ducats and a bottle of brandy! replied the Hedghog. "But first I must go home and eat a little breakfast as I have not yet had anything to eat." The Hare agreed and awaited the Hedgehog's return.

The Hedgehog went home and told his wife to dress in his other clothes, go to the far end of his field, lie down in the furrow, and when the Hare approached cry out 'I'm already here'. She went to the far end of the field and the Hedgehog went to the Hare and said 'Let's begin". The Hare dashed off while the Hedgehog ran three steps fell flat into the furrow. The reached the end of the field where he saw the hedgehog's wife who cried out, "I'm already here". "That's very strange" said the Hare. "Let's do it again!" So off he sped leaving the hedgehog's wife sitting there. The hedgehog, seeing the Hare approach jumped up and cried out, "I'm already here!" The Hare flew into a rage, yelled "AGAIN!", and sped off. And again the Hedgehog's wife cried out, "I'm already here!" This repeated for 73 time. On the 74th time, the Hare dropped dead in the middle of the field, blood pouring from his nose. The Hedgehog and his wife took the ten ducats and the bottle of brandy and went home happy.

There are two morals to this tale. No one, be he so refined should make fun of his lessors. And secondly, it is good to marry someone much like oneself. "Who is a hedgehog, then, must see to it that his wife is also a hedgehog."

Here's a parody of the fable:

Date: 2010-05-27 06:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tafelspitz.livejournal.com
Apology for the levity in the earlier posting. The German Hase and Igil is much too recent.

I've gone through both the Dutch, (1567), and the French, (1578), version of Gheeraerts's fables. (They're online at the University of Leiden's website: (Dutch http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/Dutch/Renaissance/Facsimiles/DeDeneFabulen1567/index.htm) and French http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/Dutch/Renaissance/Facsimiles/HeynsEsbatiment1587/index.htm) and I could not find an illustration that resembled that of the trencher print. Will continue to hunt.

Date: 2010-05-27 06:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ppfuf.livejournal.com
Whoever picked it out to include in the trencher set must have thought it would be familiar to the English audience at the time. I'm going to hunt down my reprint of Caxton's version of Aesop's Fables and see if it's in there.

Date: 2010-05-27 06:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tafelspitz.livejournal.com
Well the English expression of "give him and inch and he takes an ell" is from John Heywood's proverbs of 1546. I've gone through a couple of online facsimiles of this book and while the proverb is there, there is no mention of bunny or hedgehog. Instead, it appears in a rather salacious dialogue between a man and his wife. Will Continue.

Date: 2010-05-27 06:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tafelspitz.livejournal.com
I think I have found the connection between the proverb and a hedgehog.

"There are few people who have not heard of the hedgehog, who, after being permitted to enter the abode of the snake for a temporary shelter, refused to quit his comfortable habitation."

This is from _The Weekly Visitor_ published in London 1833 by the Religious Tract Society. I'll next try to run this version back in time.

Date: 2010-05-27 07:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ppfuf.livejournal.com
The hedgehog and snake is a differnt fable altogether. The Snake allows the hedgehog in for a visit, but the hedgehog never leaves and makes like so prickly for the snake, she eventaully abandons her home. Moral was be careful of unthinking hospitality. There's a Porcupine and Snakes version here: http://www.litscape.com/author/Aesop/The_Porcupine_And_The_Snakes.html

wow, I really can't spell

Date: 2010-05-27 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ppfuf.livejournal.com
The hedgehog and snake is a different fable altogether. The Snake allows the hedgehog in for a visit, but the hedgehog never leaves and makes life so prickly for the snake, she eventually abandons her home. Moral was "be careful before extending unthinking hospitality". There's a Porcupine and Snakes version here: http://www.litscape.com/author/Aesop/The_Porcupine_And_The_Snakes.html

Thanks for all the good ideas!

Date: 2010-05-27 07:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tafelspitz.livejournal.com
Hokay. I think I've got it within period. It is a 'modern' fable from a collection of similar fables written by Laurentius Abstemius (Lorenzo Bevilaqua). He was a fifteenth-century Italian scholar and was the author of various scholarly works. He is best known for his Hecatomythium Secundum, a collection of "original" Aesop's fables inspired by the classical tradition of Aesop's fables.

A hedgehog, sensing that winter was coming, nicely asked the viper if she would grant him a place in her own den against the force of the winter cold. When the viper did this, the hedgehog, as he rolled this way and that, stung the viper with the shape end of his spines and tormented her with a sharp pain. The viper, seeing that she had gotten herself into trouble when she took the hedgehog into her lodging, asked him, nicely, to leave, since the place was too narrow for the both of them. The hedgehog replied: Let the one go out who is unable to remain here. As a result the viper, realizing that there was no place for her there, yield to him as regards the lodging. This fable shows that we should not admit into our company those who are able to toss us out.

This is from Latin learning site:
http://eclassics.ning.com/profiles/blogs/727885:BlogPost:5226

There is an online facsimile of the 1499 edition of Abstemius at:
http://diglib.hab.de/wdb.php?pointer=0&dir=inkunabeln%2F171-28-quod-9&changeToXML=&changeToXSL=&end=63&imgtyp=0&distype=struc-img&size=1571&lang=en

Done.

Re: wow, I really can't spell

Date: 2010-05-27 07:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tafelspitz.livejournal.com
Well, the trencher illustration and its accompanying poem and proverb matches the 1499 fable. The question now is when and where did the snake become a rabbit?

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